Rick Warren HAS NO credibility since he moved in with the going green crowd.
Put your [people] in bondage Ricky, where Al Gore is the NEW Jesus!
Fa Fa Folly; save the planet by golly, while fucking the people out of their money, in the holy name of 2 bit trolly.[ as long as you and Al get your share]!
BO LO KNEE!
Unless you are totally brainwashed, McCain did the best. He was spot on and knew what he was saying. Obama wandered off point. His most influential people? His wife? His “typical white person” grandmother? I’m not saying Obama did badly, he just did what he usually does. Said a lot of words. Remember, he was educated as a lawyer. He’s got that part of his education down pat.
John Roberts
Antonin Scalia
Clarence Thomas
Samuel Alito
Antonin Scalia
Clarence Thomas
Samuel Alito
Clarence Thomas
Clarence Thomas
My friends!! Behold, the power of cloning.
Class warfare and the definition of “rich”? I like listening as bible thumpers invite the moneychangers back into the temple. And they do it with a straight face.
Behold the sinners; Jesse Jackson,John Edwards,Bill Clinton,Ted Kennedy, barney Frank [wand washer].
Abortion,bastard breedin,wand washer,and murder.
Can we make a deal? One piece of pussy for ?????
Thou shalt NOT take it in the ass Barney!
Liberalville must be SOOOOO proud!
I was really disappointed that Rick Warren didn’t ask McCain whether he considered calling his wife a “c***” in public was a favorable way of handling conflict.
Did anyone on this thread even watch the interviews tonight? I mean it’s only a presidential election during a war involving us and a standoff involving the other super power of the world.
Listening to McCain is like going down to the VFW and listening to all the ol’ coots at the bar. Life for many of us began and ended in that 2 or 3 years between 19 years old and the early 20s.
I was really disappointed that Rick Warren didn’t ask McCain whether he considered calling his wife a “c***” in public was a favorable way of handling conflict.
Why were you disappointed? Is something that happened 30 years ago really that important to you?
Is that why the democrats picked someone with so little experience so his background couldn’t be used against him?
Name calling (particularly the C word) is a pretty big character flaw. And obviously he has no remorse nor has he learned his lesson as he has a lengthy history is behaving in this manner to many other people. John McCain’s anger management problem is fairly common knowledge; many of his Republican peers have made comments that they are not very comfortable with someone that exhibits that degree of anger as the President.
This is all in addition to cheating on / divorcing his first wife although she was in a life threatening car accident and faithfully waited for him during his 5 years as a POW.
I plan on voting for Obama; no I don’t love him – would much rather be voting for Hillary. But I can’t possibly vote for someone like McCain who has exhibited such a horrible lack of character in regards to basic respect and loyalty to others. I do not want someone like that in the White House. I’ll take my chances with Obama.
“Remember, he was educated as a lawyer. He’s got that part of his education down pat.”
And McCain was educated to break stuff and kill people. But I haven’t seen any stats on his success as a fighter jock so I don’t know if he’s got it down pat.
But since we bring up education, Obama graduated Columbia with a degree in political science and international relations. He graduated Harvard Law magna cum laude with the further distinction of having served as president of the law review.
McCain attended Episcopal High School (a prep school in Virginia), where he excelled at wrestling, and then graduated bottom of his class at Annapolis.
McCain is quoted in the Alexandria times: “The most formative years of my life were at Episcopal High School. I did not excel academically, but I enjoyed it immensely.”
McCain expressed concern that his son had no demerits at the Naval Academy. “That’s no son of my mine!” he chuckled. “I certainly did not have the most number of demerits at Episcopal or Annapolis, but I was close.”
I prefer the word PUSSY and Hilary has a lot of it.
She doesn’t think Osama Obama can win.
Especially draggin Michelle around.
BAD choice for [first] lady!?
She looks like she’d kick Obamma’s ass!
[hood bytch].
Once again, very original. Good to see you know how to copy/paste.
McCain has forgotten more about Justice/Supreme Court than Hussein Obama has ever learned.
Just like all you Libs, BHO is soft on crime, thinks criminals should be rehabilitated, and think crime is predominantly the result of failures of societal institutions and poverty. This is because just like criminals, Libs lack discipline.
Does Barrack even know how many Justices we have? Just like he knew how many states we have!
What a putz.
I think OldLefty’s point is that your generalizations need to be backed up with evidence, better descriptions of the specific objections you have, not just characterizations, guilt by association, and other questionable premises.
Well, I hope that is an important part of what you are trying to do OldLefty, because if you are repeating back what others say without that intent, it would appear as a distraction. The fact of similarity might prove hypocrisy, but I don’t think it automatically makes an assertion illegitimate.
McCain told them what they wanted to hear. Moronic, simplistic, answers. Obama actully thought about what he was being asked and tried to answer ALL of the questions. McCain was giving pat stump speech answers.
That said, McCain probably did better. Keep in mind most of the electorate are simplistic morons when it comes to politics.
I copy and paste what conservatives say, because they never seem to get that THE same can ALWAYS be said for them.
“McCain has forgotten more about Justice/Supreme Court than Hussein Obama has ever learned.”
……………………………………
That is ANYWHERE from the truth, to YOUR opinion to unadulterated propaganda
Since Obama taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School for twelve years, I would have more gravitas to make that claim about him.
Isn’t, “Just like all you Libs, BHO is soft on crime”
Just a change of subject?
Do you REALLY want to go there, with Lewis Libby Michael Scanlon and Jack Abramoff, Bob Ney, Bill Frist, Tom DeLay, Halliburton, who did business with some of the world’s most notorious governments and dictators – in countries such as Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Libya and Nigeria, and, Bush violated SEC Insider Trading Law Four Times….
Or is crime OK as long as you are rich and powerful?
Does JOHN even know how many Justices we have? Just like he knew the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUNNI AND SHIA, THE PITTSBURGH STEELERS AND THE GREENBAY PACKERS,and THE LOCATION OF PAKISTAN AND IRAN,
What a putz.
BO did not inspire me, he sort of made my eyes glaze over, Mc was a little simple but had a few good lines. I hate to say it, but I think McCain was better. Overall, they both were not inspiring…maybe it was the goofy guy comentators fault?
OL, I will go back to my stump speech. You list off Repubs in your last post, now list off the Dems. It doesn’t matter if they have a R or D next to their name. They are all politicians most of them lawyers. They all suck and it’s up to us to keep them in line as much as we can. If you’ve ever had any supervisory training, now is the time to use it.
Now, for the last 8 years we had someone inexperienced in large government in office. Do we really want to chance it for another 4 or 8 years? Let Obama get some experience somewhere besides a theoretical world. Then he can run for president.
Warren may come away from this experience liking Obama more and respecting the fact that he seemed to take pains to not offend him and respect their disagreements. But I’m betting that if a focus group of undecided voters were watching this, they’d come away having a clearer understanding of McCain’s beliefs. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/16/1270330.aspx
LV Lives,
I agree 100% with your first paragragh.
It is easier to find crooks with an R after their names, because they have been in power longer.
I can’t tell you how many times I have written to MY congress people starting with:
“I did NOT donate money and Pound pavement to help elect you so that you could….”
Only to get the “Thank you for contacti..Blah, blah,
I have no doubt that if the Democrats gain more power, for a time they also will become drunk on their own power.
I fear that McCain is a neo con who LOVES the idea of being a war president.
I have that same fear with McCain but because Obama’s tax plan will kill the $100 a month I have left over, I’m going to have to go with Mac.
What I would really love to have is a balanced government. Checks and balances because we’ve seen what the same party in charge of both congress and the white house will do. I just don’t think Obama, Pelosi and Reid are a better trade off right now.
So you’re willing to go with another George Bush, LV? I hope you’re of draft age, because if McSame gets elected, he’s gonna need a lot more young people to die in all his wars.
Look at it as you will. Service to the country means just that, service to the country. The only just war we’ve fought is the one over 200 years ago. After that it wasn’t for freedom, except freedom to continue the life we’ve come to get used to.
And you’re children will fight against the rebels in Darfur … the same people that cut the breast off nursing mothers so the baby and the mother die a slow horrible life. I guess that’s more noble than fighting for their own country.
Well if you think about it, it’s much better to think and be sincere about the answer’s on the issues rather than just blasting off what you think the ppls wants to hear like what McCain demonstrated. He is so much like Bush “cocky” always ready to go to war without looking at he whole picture. That’s why we already have lost 4000+ lives in this senseless war. McCain image protrays a pitbull always ready to bite. And the question concerning his biggest moral mistake, McCain went through it so fast that you didn’t get any clarity why the marrige ended was because of his adultry and not standing by his wife after her tragic accident. I see what he means concerning his answer of the war lasting a 100 years, because he’s always ready to attack whether right or wrong or could this be a way he’s trying to get back at being a POW that’s scary. I think Sen.Obama is very sincere with trying to make this WORLD a better place like God wants it to be. Sen.Obama’s answer on taxes was on point with the bible verse “TO MUCH IS GIVEN MUCH IS REQUIRED” and he’s also including himself. McCain’s answer much to vage and self centered not caring about the ppls who’s less fortunate.
“And you’re children will fight against the rebels in Darfur”
And why aren’t we out there fighting the injustice in Darfur? I’ll tell you why. There’s no OIL there.
There’s no money to be made there. THERE IS NO PROFITABLE REASON FOR THE U.S. TO BE THERE!
Before you start preaching to me, look at the big picture. Look at your president who invaded a sovreign nation, sacficed millions of innocent lives so he can STEAL THEIR OIL.
Do you really think Bush or McCain care about Darfur? I think not.
This talk about war for this or for that makes me shake my head and sigh. Folks, war is dirty, smelly, loud and random in death and wounds; it is not glorious. I am hard pressed to find a justification for war..self defense probably is one. The costs are enormous, in dollar, body and psych . Unfortunately it has been with mankind since day one and will likely be the cause of our last days. Do not use the word lightly.
Well, on the subject if crime and punishment, I would like to see more information about the punitive aspect thereof on Barack’s website. Though, myself being opposed to the death penalty, his support of it isn’t something I care for. But I do believe in strong sentences. If there’s anything that does hurt death penalty opponents, it’s not wanting strong sentences for severe crime (if we start having some of the apparent sentencing guidelines of parts of Europe, although better than some in the Middle East, how sickening for us all), and for somehow managing to too often advocate on behalf of the most unremorseful, arrogant death row inmates. Granted, if they truly believe themselves innocent, remorse doesn’t make sense, but arrogance isn’t acceptable.
Just give me whatever meds they had McCain on!! He answered the questions almost before they were asked. He was in front of a friendly pro-life crowd and was obviously very well coached. He did as well as I’ve seen him do, although his constant use of “my friends” and his Vietnam war stories (that I’ve heard so many times that I can quote them) made me have to subtract favor points. And I must say that too many of his answers contained references to war and national security. It made me think that war and conflict is all he thinks about. He’s a little dogmatic.
I thought Obama was great, as usual. He wasn’t giving a stump speech. He answered the questions very thoughtfully and humbly. Everytime I see him speak I feel comforted and confident that he is what America needs right now. I love his calm demeanor and pragmatic way of dealing with things. I’m a first time Democratic voter and I’m proud that it’ll be for Obama.
McCain BROKE THE RULES. (Surprising?) He arrived a half an hour AFTER the program started. It makes you wonder. He’s lied so much, it’s hard to trust him!
Obama thoughtfully answered the questions. McCain evaded the answers, gave “cute” answers to try to score points with the audience and basically gave his stump speech (which was NOT what this forum was about).
Look this was just another hit job like ABC debate and the hits that keep coming from Faux News, and the Rev. Lied, McCain was not in the cone of silence, he was not even at the church, but in a car listening to the questions being ask by Sen. Obama, what a bunch of B.S. and to think this taking place in a church.
Here is a question that absolutely can be asked of both sides, but as I am a leebral I’m putting it to my conservative friends:
If you actually had access to the ABSOLUTE truth…(not other people’s opinion of what the truth is),
and that truth lead to the conclusion that your candidate was a TRUE villain, (as many said Bill Clinton was),on a scale of 1-10…a -10, while the other candidate was a 0 – +2 by conservative standards:
Would your Limbaughs and Hannitys admit it or would they still spin for the party?
Would you know if they were lying even if it REALLY fit your worldview?
True villain like hitler? Or the night stalker? A baby killer? Che?
Or villain like someone that could/has committed crimes?
I would hope a person would put human decency before their political party.
Who said clinton was a villain ala hitler, etc.? Maybe a lying leftist politician, but that’s far from being a villain. If villain as in has/could break the law, well, in fact he did. He lied under oath.
Maybe something you are missing. The right isn’t saying obama is a villain or anything like that. They just don’t like his leftist policies. Compare that to the view of bush from the left, they insist he’s hitler and all the other true villains of history.
OK,instead of ‘villian’, make it someone who in your opinion would make the WORSE president, whether due to incompetence, inexperience OR nefarious motives.
Let’s not forget that they called Clinton a rapist, troopergate, killing Vince Foster.
They accuse Obama of being a secret Muslim, a racist, and a black militant.
Bush has been accused of starting a war that resulted in that the horrific deaths of thousands,for war profiteering AND because he wanted to be a war president.
My point is, if ‘THIS TIME’ (meaning anytime), your guy is guilty of any of the above, how do you assure youself that you would know?
And to have faith that those who make their living spinning for one particular party would suddenly put human decency OR the good of the country before their political party OR their ratings, isn’t good enough, since both sides even now, believe the other side won’t admit their side is wrong.
Hey LV– Obama was at least employed in the real world for awhile. McCain’s been nothing but a militarist and politician.
And if McCain did best (certainly an opinion. My Republican-leaning husband disagrees and thought Obama the better speaker), perhaps because it was because McCain’s motorcade, gee, got “stuck in traffic,” allowing him to forego the “cone of silence” that would have prevented him from hearing the questions Obama was answering beforehand.
Did you know:
1… that thanks to a provision in tax law demanded by liberals in Congress-President Bush’s tax relief packages of 2001 and 2003 are set to expire, resulting in what the Wall Street Journal describes as “the biggest tax increase in our nations history”
2… that if Pres. Bush’s tax cuts expire, the American people will face an overall tax hike of almost $2.4 trillion.
3… that more than 8 million jobs were created after Pres. Bush signed into law the second round of historic tax cuts in 2003, and that almost 6 million additional jobs could be created over the next decade by making permanent the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003
4…that if the Liberals who now control Congress succeed in revoking President Bush’s tax cuts, 42 million American families with children will see an average tax hike of $2,084.
5…that Americans pay an estimated 35 to 40% of their earnings each year in federal taxes.
6…that if Pres. Bush’s tax cuts expire, 17 million American seniors will be hit with an average tax increase of $2,034
7…that if Pres. Bush’s 2001 tax cuts are not made permanent, 26 million small business owners will face an average tax increase of $3,637
8…that Nancy Pelosi and the libs who now control Congress want to reinstate the Death Tax-The Death Tax would increase taxes by $91 billion.
9…that Pres. Bush’s first tax releif package provided Americans with accros the board tax rate cuts that are set to expire. If these tax rate cuts are not made permanent, families will face a tax increase of as much as 100%
10…that by repealing the tax cuts or 2001 and 2003, liberals in Congress would reinstate the Marriage Penalty that forces married couples to pay higher taxes than single taxpayers.
Do you want more of your hard earned money in your pocket or someone else’s?????????
It was so obvious watching that saddleback debacle. McCain was obviously in the know. I have lost all respect for JH and Pastor W Davis. Why did he arrive late, why did the questions start, even though McCain was not in the ‘cone of silence’ this is so suspect considering that JH has the oratory skills of a gerbal. On watching this and hearing JH continually use his time in the military as a shield and sword, dont you think its about time he releases his full military records. Let us/we the people decide whether he has the character and judgement to lead, this needs to be done asap as there’s so much stuff flying around about his bad military past.. heres a few facts the neocons opps i mean typically white fox viewers to chew on.
When Are We Going to See McCain’s Actual Military Record?
by Gregory Wonderwheel
Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 08:24:55 AM PDT
Subtitle: Where are real investigative reporters when we need them?
If you saw or heard headlines like MSNBC’s
Navy releases McCain’s military record
Unadorned paragraphs bestow some of nation’s top military honors
reporting the story by JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer, you might believe that the Navy has released McCain’s military records.
If you do, you would be wrong. The main stream media propaganda being what it is you would be understandably wrong but still wrong.
According to Kuhnhenn,
The Navy recently released McCain’s military record most of it citations for medals during his Navy career after a Freedom of Information Act request by The Associated Press.
If you look at the link to the records that were released you will see that Kuhnhenn was misrepresenting the facts by calling this small collection of only 19 pages McCain’s “military record”.
* Gregory Wonderwheel’s diary :: ::
*
This Associated Press headline “Navy Releases McCain’s Military Record” is all over the internet as it was picked up as a story in very many local media outlets both printed and television.
Apparently what the Navy released were the copies of citations, a couple of pages listing his eligibility for service citations, and a little over one page of a typed outline listing brief biographical data including dates of promotions and assignments on a plain page of paper without even a military letterhead.
Now, I never served in the military. My older brother was a Marine in Vietnam and based on his stories, on what I knew aboout the history of Vietnam from the information available at the time, and on my own developing beleifs in non-violence as a better way, when I was had to register for the draft in 1967 I registered as a conscientious objector. I just didn’t buy the story that the communists in Vietnam were planning to march down the streets of Los Angeles, as my draft board said they would, if I did’t join the military.
So there may be things in these documents that I don’t understand based on their military point of view. But I can see where dates don’t agree. And it doesn’t take a military mind to see that vast amounts of information on McCain’s military service are missing.
I’m writing this diary based on the story that these 19 pages are considered the release of McCain’s military records. If I am wrong and there are other more complete versions of McCain’s military records that have been released, then please, anyone, let me know and I will modify or delete this diary as appropriate.
But based on the reported story, my first question is, why did Kuhnhenn and the Associated Press report this paltry handful of 19 pages as the “release” of McCain’s “military record”?
Where are the rest of McCain’s military records?
Where are the reports on McCain’s Naval Academy grades?
Where are the reports on McCain’s transfers from one unit to another and why he was transferred?
Where are the reports on McCain’s assignment to pilot training in Florida and the references to his Naval Academy grades qualifying him for such an assignment? Where are the letters indicating who recommended him for that assignment? Where are the records of how his training went?
The slim list of his service assignments states that after Naval Air Basic Training, McCain had two short assignments with the third being to VA-65 from November 1960 to October 1963. Then in November 1963 McCain was reassigned back to Naval Air Basic Training? Why? What happend at VA-65? At Air Basic Training was he getting retraining for himself or was he assigned to train others?
Where are the reports on the five wrecked jet planes that McCain was involved in during his military career?
After McCain’s second stint at Air Basic Training he was assinged to the Training Squadron SEVEN ad Meridian Mississippi for a little over two years. Where are his military records from this assignment?
He then went to VA-44 at Cecil Field Florida for six months until April 1967.
In May 1967 McCain was transferred to VA-46 where the “record” says he served for only four months to September 1967 howerver this dae is sucpect as discussed below. Why was he transferred out of VA-46 after only four months? VA-46 was duty on the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal (CVA-59). Could it have anything to do with the fact that on July 29, 1967, about two months after McCain began his duty with VA-46 on its very first combat deployment that there was a terrible disaster on deck where a ZUNI missle was set off that created a chain reaction of explosions and fire that killed up to 134? Where are the military records of McCain’s involvement in the USS Forestal incident?
Note: I have seen three different dates on the internet references to the USS Forrestal incident written as the date of the fire, July 20, July 26 and July 29, of which the 29th is the official date.
Here’s a video of the incident which states “134 men were killed or missing.” This video is used now for training purposes to scare sailors into taking ship fires seriously and to get them to take their fire fighting instruction seriously.
Note that the video begins by saying “On deck somehow a ZUNI rocket has been triggered.” Where is the Navy’s investigation report on how the missle was set off and who was responsible? Could it be that the rumors that the Zuni missle was set off because of McCain’s negligence are true? One story has it that McCain was in his jet at the time and he was showing off and trying to scare the pilot behind him, so McCain made a big flash of explosion of jet fuel happen when he “wet started” his engine, and because the flash was too large it set off the Zuni missle on the plane behind him and the missle shot out under McCain’s plane and several others until it hit a nother plane down the row as shown in the video.
McCain’s campaign biography says he was on the USS Forrestal on July 29. Here’s McCain’s official description of the event.
On July 29 1967, John narrowly survived the first of many near-death experiences during his lifetime while preparing to take off on a bombing mission over North Vietnam from his ship, the USS Forrestal. A missile accidentally fired from a nearby plane struck the fuel tanks on John’s plane and created a deadly inferno aboard the ship. John barely escaped the fiery disaster that killed 134 men, injured hundreds more and destroyed 20 planes.
Again, the missle “accidentally” fired.
According to WAYNE MADSEN/WAYNE MADSEN REPORT
WMR has learned additional details regarding the deadly fire aboard the Navy aircraft carrier, the USS Forrestal, on July 19, 1967 in the Gulf of Tonkin. The additional details point to then-Lt. Commander John McCain playing more of a role in triggering the fire and explosions than previously reported.
On January 16, 2006, WMR reported that according to a US Navy sailor who was aboard the Forrestal on the fateful day of the fire, “McCain and the Forrestal’s skipper, Capt. John K. Beling, were warned about the danger of using M-65 1000-lb. bombs manufactured in 1935, which were deemed too dangerous to use during World War II and, later, on B-52 bombers. The fire from the Zuni missle misfire resulted in the heavy 1000 pound bombs being knocked loose from the pylons of McCain’s A-4 aircraft, which were only designed to hold 500-pound bombs.”
WMR further reported, “The unstable bombs had a 60-second cook-off threshold in a fire situation and this warning was known to both Beling and McCain prior to the disaster.” WMR also cited the potential that McCain’s Navy records were used against him by the neo-cons in control of the Pentagon, “The neo-cons, who have had five years to examine every file within the Department of Defense, have likely accessed documents that could prove embarrassing to McCain, who was on board the USS Forrestal on July 29, 1967, and whose A-4 Skyhawk was struck by an air-toground Zuni missile that had misfired from an F-4 Phantom
WMR has been informed that crewmen aboard the Forrestal have provided additional information about the Forrestal incident. It is believed by many crewmen and those who have investigated the case that McCain deliberately “wet-started” his A-4E to shake up the guy in the plane behind his A-4. “Wet-starts”, done either deliberately or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft.
In McCain’s case, the “wet-start” apparently “cooked off” and launched the Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that touched off the explosions and massive fire. The F-4 pilot was reportedly killed in the conflagration. “Wet starting” was apparently a common practice among young “hot-dog” pilots.
McCain was quickly transferred to the USS Oriskany (the only Forrestal crewman to be immediately transferred). Three months later, McCain was shot down over North Vietnam on October 26, 1967.
The unofficial looking list of assignments in McCain’s released military record states that McCain was reassinged out of the VA-46 (thus off the USS Forrestal) in September 1967 and assigned to VA-163 in October 1967. But the official Air Medal citation “for meritorious service” in VA-163 on “the USS Oriskany (CVA-34)” states that his service there “during missions in support of combat operations” was “from 25 July to 21 October 1967.” So the citation says McCain was transferred to the VA-163 on the USS Oriskany not in September two months after the USS Forestal disaster but four days before the fire.
What is the cause of this discrepancy in the military records? What was the date that McCain was transferred from the USS Forrestal to the USS Oriskany?
Why does the plain sheet of paper in the military record say he was transferred off the USS Forrestal in Septemeber 1967 but the citation for service on the USS Oriskany says he began his service there on July 25, 1967, four days before the fire on the USS Forrestal?
Did McCain transfer off the USS Forrestal after the fire but have his records altered at the time to appear that he transferred off before the fire? Did he transfer in July or in September? Could it be that McCain’s quick transfer off the USS Forestal and out of VA-46 and the confusion of the dates were because he was found to be responsible for the fire? Could it be that he was transferred so quickly so the sailors wouldn’t frag him for having casued the death of their fellow sailors? Or could it be something innocent like there just weren’t enough planes to go around after the 20 to 21 planes were damaged? I don’t know, but perhaps the full military records would clear this up if we ever got to see them.
Knowing how many other pilots were transferred off the USS Forrestal after the fire and how quickly they were they transferred would also help explain if there was anything unsual about McCain’s transfer and why the records that were released have such a discrepancy. The USS Forrestal certainly wasn’t put out of commission by the incident and other planes could have been brought in, so were they? Was McCain the only pilot transferred off of the Forrestal so quickly?
Is the USS Forrestal incident McCain’s Chappaquiddick with the records being buried by the military? Release of the full and complete records would help clarify these points.
McCain’s official boigraphy next says,
Instead of taking the option to return home after the Forrestal disaster, Senator McCain volunteered for more combat duty – a fateful decision that stopped the clock on his life and separated him from his family, and country, for five and a half years.
Excuse me, why would he be given “the option to return home” after the Forrestal disaster? He was in the military so he couldn’t just “return home.” Combat pilots were needed so why would the Navy offer to let him “return home” if there was no responsibility for the disaster on his part? And since when do combat trained pilots get to volunteer for combat duty rather than be assigned to such duty? Perhaps the military records could clarify what “volunteer” for combat duty means in in a war time environment. Are there any military personnel out there who could help me understand this point?
So next after the USS Forrestal disaster, McCain was assigned to VA-163 on the USS Oriskany and was shot down either in the very same month or 3 months later depending on which of the two dates of the transfer is correct. The citations don’t make it clear what the difference is between “combat support missions” and actual combat missions. Acccording to the citations his combat support missions were between July 25 and October 21 and he engaged in combat missions worthy of citation on the 18th and 25th of October and on the 26th when he was shot down.
The citation for his Silver Star says that from October 27 to December 8 1967,
His captors, completely ignoring international agreements, subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes.
Wait a minute? What does it mean “attempted”? McCain has admitted that he was successfully broken down by his captors and that he did make and sign “false confessions.” So this citation is for his resistance before he broke down. None of the citations referring to his POW experience mention that he signed confessions. I’m not faulting him at all. I probably would have signed any false confession they put before me without any torture. The point is not that he didn’t demonstrate valorous resistance before he was broken down, but that these are not complete military records if they don’t include the references to the confessions that he did sign afterwards. These citations by their very purpose just cherry-pick the things the superiors could write down as deserving of citation and they ignor any other facts. That is understandable in a document whose sole purpose is to justify a citation, but it is not a military record of the whole incident itself.
After McCain was released from capture, where are the military reports on McCain’s debriefing after being a POW?
After McCain was relaeased from the hospital in July 1973 he was promoted to Commander and assigned to the National War College for 11 months. Then he was assigned to VA-174 where he served for three years until July 1977 without promotion though he received a citation for his safety record, personnel training, and promoting the “Human Resources Developmnet program”.
McCain was then transferred in July 1977 to the Office of Legislative Affairs in Washington DC where he served as “Director of the Senate Liason”. In other words McCain was serving as a lobbyist for the Navy. Two years later in August 1979 he was promoted to Captain and less than two years later in March 1981 he retired from the Navy to take up his political career.
At his retirement after serving as Director of the Senate Liason, McCain received the Legion of Merit award. The citation is pretty funny to read as it clearly describes his political savy as a Navy lobbyist at working the system for the benefit of the Navy. Here’s what the Navy’s praise of its lobbyists sounds like:
Captain McCain’s unique talents, exceptional knowledge of politico-military matters, and keen and unusally perceptive insights into the interests and relationships between key members of the Congress provided Navy leadership with sage advice and sound judgement for enacting critical legislation during a period of severe fiscal constraint. His performance in this sensitive and critical postition contributed directly and significantly to the success of navy programs before the Congress, ensuring both readiness and modernization of the fleet.
So McCain was promoted to Captian and awarded the Legion of Merit by the Navy for performing the duties of a good lobbyist.
The next year McCain the former Navy lobbyist was elected to Congress and another fox was let loose in the hen house.
Kuhnhenn reports that the AP received the records as a result of a Freedoom of Information Act request. But Kuhnhenn did not report why he only received 19 pages. He didn’t report what the nature of his request was or whether there was any response indicating why he didn’t receive a complete record. Why hasn’t McCain voluntarily waived confidentiality and released his full military records on his own?
So with all these unanswered questions about his military career, I can only ask where are John McCain’s real, actual, and complete military records and when will they be released?
Rick Warren HAS NO credibility since he moved in with the going green crowd.
Put your [people] in bondage Ricky, where Al Gore is the NEW Jesus!
Fa Fa Folly; save the planet by golly, while fucking the people out of their money, in the holy name of 2 bit trolly.[ as long as you and Al get your share]!
BO LO KNEE!
FIRST !
slow in libville 2 nite.
They’re too busy watching their prophet Obie on the TV.
‘Alan can i tell you a story about the time i as a POW during those 5 years?’
wow, it seems mccain all he ever talked about was about his 5 years of POW!
McCain’s agenda is:
‘lets drill! big tax cuts for oil companies and
can i tell you a story about my military service?’
Unless you are totally brainwashed, McCain did the best. He was spot on and knew what he was saying. Obama wandered off point. His most influential people? His wife? His “typical white person” grandmother? I’m not saying Obama did badly, he just did what he usually does. Said a lot of words. Remember, he was educated as a lawyer. He’s got that part of his education down pat.
Michael Phelps 8/8 Gold Medals!
14 Total Gold Medals (previous was 9 by 4 other olympians)
U-S-A! U-S-A!
Oh Yeah. Obama is always better than McCain. Give me a fucking break…
My friends!! A McCain placed US Supreme Court:
John Roberts
Antonin Scalia
Clarence Thomas
Samuel Alito
Antonin Scalia
Clarence Thomas
Samuel Alito
Clarence Thomas
Clarence Thomas
My friends!! Behold, the power of cloning.
Class warfare and the definition of “rich”? I like listening as bible thumpers invite the moneychangers back into the temple. And they do it with a straight face.
My friends!! My friends!! My friends!!
Obama wins.
Michael Phelps wins tonight. Will think about politics tomorrow.
Behold the sinners; Jesse Jackson,John Edwards,Bill Clinton,Ted Kennedy, barney Frank [wand washer].
Abortion,bastard breedin,wand washer,and murder.
Can we make a deal? One piece of pussy for ?????
Thou shalt NOT take it in the ass Barney!
Liberalville must be SOOOOO proud!
Anon – I guess we’ll all find out Nov 5th. It all depends on the electoral college
Its ok; we got Rick Warren!!! LOL!
WHORE!
I was really disappointed that Rick Warren didn’t ask McCain whether he considered calling his wife a “c***” in public was a favorable way of handling conflict.
Did anyone on this thread even watch the interviews tonight? I mean it’s only a presidential election during a war involving us and a standoff involving the other super power of the world.
And for those of you who watched it, did you see Michelle Obama? I didn’t, is she still in political exile?
McCain’s wife is a “trollop”, not a “c**t”.
Listening to McCain is like going down to the VFW and listening to all the ol’ coots at the bar. Life for many of us began and ended in that 2 or 3 years between 19 years old and the early 20s.
Man, is there some sort of depression cloud cover out there? Is it still a full moon?
I am avid Obama supporter, but I think McCain did better tonight. I think Obama needs to step his game up before the debates.
I was really disappointed that Rick Warren didn’t ask McCain whether he considered calling his wife a “c***” in public was a favorable way of handling conflict.
Why were you disappointed? Is something that happened 30 years ago really that important to you?
Is that why the democrats picked someone with so little experience so his background couldn’t be used against him?
Phelps beat McCain…
no I didnt watch it tonight, maybe it will be shown during the week
I saw that other show today, you know the one Im talking about…
Is Phelps a bigger “celebrity” than McCain now?
Name calling (particularly the C word) is a pretty big character flaw. And obviously he has no remorse nor has he learned his lesson as he has a lengthy history is behaving in this manner to many other people. John McCain’s anger management problem is fairly common knowledge; many of his Republican peers have made comments that they are not very comfortable with someone that exhibits that degree of anger as the President.
This is all in addition to cheating on / divorcing his first wife although she was in a life threatening car accident and faithfully waited for him during his 5 years as a POW.
I plan on voting for Obama; no I don’t love him – would much rather be voting for Hillary. But I can’t possibly vote for someone like McCain who has exhibited such a horrible lack of character in regards to basic respect and loyalty to others. I do not want someone like that in the White House. I’ll take my chances with Obama.
“Who did best?”
This isn’t a sporting event. The candidates just expressed their views on things. And that’s the BEST for America.
“Remember, he was educated as a lawyer. He’s got that part of his education down pat.”
And McCain was educated to break stuff and kill people. But I haven’t seen any stats on his success as a fighter jock so I don’t know if he’s got it down pat.
But since we bring up education, Obama graduated Columbia with a degree in political science and international relations. He graduated Harvard Law magna cum laude with the further distinction of having served as president of the law review.
McCain attended Episcopal High School (a prep school in Virginia), where he excelled at wrestling, and then graduated bottom of his class at Annapolis.
McCain is quoted in the Alexandria times: “The most formative years of my life were at Episcopal High School. I did not excel academically, but I enjoyed it immensely.”
McCain expressed concern that his son had no demerits at the Naval Academy. “That’s no son of my mine!” he chuckled. “I certainly did not have the most number of demerits at Episcopal or Annapolis, but I was close.”
http://www.alextimes.com/article.asp?article=7851&paper=1&cat=141
I prefer the word PUSSY and Hilary has a lot of it.
She doesn’t think Osama Obama can win.
Especially draggin Michelle around.
BAD choice for [first] lady!?
She looks like she’d kick Obamma’s ass!
[hood bytch].
Barrack Hussein Obama, a lawyer, a Senator, and a Presidential candidate who knows nothing about the function of the Supreme Court. What a putz.
John McCain, a veteran, a professional politician,and a Presidential candidate who knows nothing about the function of the Supreme Court. What a putz.
OL,
Once again, very original. Good to see you know how to copy/paste.
McCain has forgotten more about Justice/Supreme Court than Hussein Obama has ever learned.
Just like all you Libs, BHO is soft on crime, thinks criminals should be rehabilitated, and think crime is predominantly the result of failures of societal institutions and poverty. This is because just like criminals, Libs lack discipline.
Does Barrack even know how many Justices we have? Just like he knew how many states we have!
What a putz.
I think OldLefty’s point is that your generalizations need to be backed up with evidence, better descriptions of the specific objections you have, not just characterizations, guilt by association, and other questionable premises.
Well, I hope that is an important part of what you are trying to do OldLefty, because if you are repeating back what others say without that intent, it would appear as a distraction. The fact of similarity might prove hypocrisy, but I don’t think it automatically makes an assertion illegitimate.
McCain told them what they wanted to hear. Moronic, simplistic, answers. Obama actully thought about what he was being asked and tried to answer ALL of the questions. McCain was giving pat stump speech answers.
That said, McCain probably did better. Keep in mind most of the electorate are simplistic morons when it comes to politics.
So McCain does not think someone is rich unless they make five million a year. LOL
Alan, when are you going to stop being Sean’s bitch?
Tom and WFG,
I copy and paste what conservatives say, because they never seem to get that THE same can ALWAYS be said for them.
“McCain has forgotten more about Justice/Supreme Court than Hussein Obama has ever learned.”
……………………………………
That is ANYWHERE from the truth, to YOUR opinion to unadulterated propaganda
Since Obama taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School for twelve years, I would have more gravitas to make that claim about him.
Isn’t, “Just like all you Libs, BHO is soft on crime”
Just a change of subject?
Do you REALLY want to go there, with Lewis Libby Michael Scanlon and Jack Abramoff, Bob Ney, Bill Frist, Tom DeLay, Halliburton, who did business with some of the world’s most notorious governments and dictators – in countries such as Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Libya and Nigeria, and, Bush violated SEC Insider Trading Law Four Times….
Or is crime OK as long as you are rich and powerful?
Does JOHN even know how many Justices we have? Just like he knew the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUNNI AND SHIA, THE PITTSBURGH STEELERS AND THE GREENBAY PACKERS,and THE LOCATION OF PAKISTAN AND IRAN,
What a putz.
BO did not inspire me, he sort of made my eyes glaze over, Mc was a little simple but had a few good lines. I hate to say it, but I think McCain was better. Overall, they both were not inspiring…maybe it was the goofy guy comentators fault?
OL, I will go back to my stump speech. You list off Repubs in your last post, now list off the Dems. It doesn’t matter if they have a R or D next to their name. They are all politicians most of them lawyers. They all suck and it’s up to us to keep them in line as much as we can. If you’ve ever had any supervisory training, now is the time to use it.
Now, for the last 8 years we had someone inexperienced in large government in office. Do we really want to chance it for another 4 or 8 years? Let Obama get some experience somewhere besides a theoretical world. Then he can run for president.
A couple views from the left…
Obama held his own, I think, but McCain’s performance was the crowd favorite, my friends.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/8/16/205459/701
Warren may come away from this experience liking Obama more and respecting the fact that he seemed to take pains to not offend him and respect their disagreements. But I’m betting that if a focus group of undecided voters were watching this, they’d come away having a clearer understanding of McCain’s beliefs.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/16/1270330.aspx
LV Lives,
I agree 100% with your first paragragh.
It is easier to find crooks with an R after their names, because they have been in power longer.
I can’t tell you how many times I have written to MY congress people starting with:
“I did NOT donate money and Pound pavement to help elect you so that you could….”
Only to get the “Thank you for contacti..Blah, blah,
I have no doubt that if the Democrats gain more power, for a time they also will become drunk on their own power.
I fear that McCain is a neo con who LOVES the idea of being a war president.
I’ll take my chances with Barack.
I have that same fear with McCain but because Obama’s tax plan will kill the $100 a month I have left over, I’m going to have to go with Mac.
What I would really love to have is a balanced government. Checks and balances because we’ve seen what the same party in charge of both congress and the white house will do. I just don’t think Obama, Pelosi and Reid are a better trade off right now.
So you’re willing to go with another George Bush, LV? I hope you’re of draft age, because if McSame gets elected, he’s gonna need a lot more young people to die in all his wars.
Yes I am willing to go with John McCain who has on numerous occasions proved his presidency will not be the Bush 3rd term.
I’ve already served my country in the miliary TDro…have you?
And if my children must, then they must. However I am insuring they will not serve as the grunts like I did by making sure they get educated.
Well, better your children die for Bush and McCain than mine.
I prefer my children, if they must, die for their country, not for oil.
Look at it as you will. Service to the country means just that, service to the country. The only just war we’ve fought is the one over 200 years ago. After that it wasn’t for freedom, except freedom to continue the life we’ve come to get used to.
And you’re children will fight against the rebels in Darfur … the same people that cut the breast off nursing mothers so the baby and the mother die a slow horrible life. I guess that’s more noble than fighting for their own country.
Well if you think about it, it’s much better to think and be sincere about the answer’s on the issues rather than just blasting off what you think the ppls wants to hear like what McCain demonstrated. He is so much like Bush “cocky” always ready to go to war without looking at he whole picture. That’s why we already have lost 4000+ lives in this senseless war. McCain image protrays a pitbull always ready to bite. And the question concerning his biggest moral mistake, McCain went through it so fast that you didn’t get any clarity why the marrige ended was because of his adultry and not standing by his wife after her tragic accident. I see what he means concerning his answer of the war lasting a 100 years, because he’s always ready to attack whether right or wrong or could this be a way he’s trying to get back at being a POW that’s scary. I think Sen.Obama is very sincere with trying to make this WORLD a better place like God wants it to be. Sen.Obama’s answer on taxes was on point with the bible verse “TO MUCH IS GIVEN MUCH IS REQUIRED” and he’s also including himself. McCain’s answer much to vage and self centered not caring about the ppls who’s less fortunate.
“And you’re children will fight against the rebels in Darfur”
And why aren’t we out there fighting the injustice in Darfur? I’ll tell you why. There’s no OIL there.
There’s no money to be made there. THERE IS NO PROFITABLE REASON FOR THE U.S. TO BE THERE!
Before you start preaching to me, look at the big picture. Look at your president who invaded a sovreign nation, sacficed millions of innocent lives so he can STEAL THEIR OIL.
Do you really think Bush or McCain care about Darfur? I think not.
This talk about war for this or for that makes me shake my head and sigh. Folks, war is dirty, smelly, loud and random in death and wounds; it is not glorious. I am hard pressed to find a justification for war..self defense probably is one. The costs are enormous, in dollar, body and psych . Unfortunately it has been with mankind since day one and will likely be the cause of our last days. Do not use the word lightly.
Jerome R. Corsi: Group tied to al-Qaida backs McCain for prez
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57678
Well, on the subject if crime and punishment, I would like to see more information about the punitive aspect thereof on Barack’s website. Though, myself being opposed to the death penalty, his support of it isn’t something I care for. But I do believe in strong sentences. If there’s anything that does hurt death penalty opponents, it’s not wanting strong sentences for severe crime (if we start having some of the apparent sentencing guidelines of parts of Europe, although better than some in the Middle East, how sickening for us all), and for somehow managing to too often advocate on behalf of the most unremorseful, arrogant death row inmates. Granted, if they truly believe themselves innocent, remorse doesn’t make sense, but arrogance isn’t acceptable.
“of,” not “if,” crime and punishment.
T2Pee says:
“Is something that happened 30 years ago really that important to you?”
Are you referring to Kennedy’s auto accident, or Clinton’s Monica problem?
Or earlier Republican shenanigans? Like Keating’s Savings and Loan scandal?
Like Keating’s Savings and Loan scandal?
Explain to us what happened…
Did mcsame go to jail, be found guilty of any crimes?
Any reprimands from the senate ethics committee?
What happened to the other 4?
How many of the 5 were democrats?
Tell us about DeConcini, what position did clinton appoint him to? Why?
Or you can ignore facts, your choice.
<T2Pee says:
Cute.
Just give me whatever meds they had McCain on!! He answered the questions almost before they were asked. He was in front of a friendly pro-life crowd and was obviously very well coached. He did as well as I’ve seen him do, although his constant use of “my friends” and his Vietnam war stories (that I’ve heard so many times that I can quote them) made me have to subtract favor points. And I must say that too many of his answers contained references to war and national security. It made me think that war and conflict is all he thinks about. He’s a little dogmatic.
I thought Obama was great, as usual. He wasn’t giving a stump speech. He answered the questions very thoughtfully and humbly. Everytime I see him speak I feel comforted and confident that he is what America needs right now. I love his calm demeanor and pragmatic way of dealing with things. I’m a first time Democratic voter and I’m proud that it’ll be for Obama.
McCain BROKE THE RULES. (Surprising?) He arrived a half an hour AFTER the program started. It makes you wonder. He’s lied so much, it’s hard to trust him!
Obama thoughtfully answered the questions. McCain evaded the answers, gave “cute” answers to try to score points with the audience and basically gave his stump speech (which was NOT what this forum was about).
Look this was just another hit job like ABC debate and the hits that keep coming from Faux News, and the Rev. Lied, McCain was not in the cone of silence, he was not even at the church, but in a car listening to the questions being ask by Sen. Obama, what a bunch of B.S. and to think this taking place in a church.
Want proof that mcsame did better?
Simple.
The left is insisting that mcsame cheated.
Here is a question that absolutely can be asked of both sides, but as I am a leebral I’m putting it to my conservative friends:
If you actually had access to the ABSOLUTE truth…(not other people’s opinion of what the truth is),
and that truth lead to the conclusion that your candidate was a TRUE villain, (as many said Bill Clinton was),on a scale of 1-10…a -10, while the other candidate was a 0 – +2 by conservative standards:
Would your Limbaughs and Hannitys admit it or would they still spin for the party?
Would you know if they were lying even if it REALLY fit your worldview?
If so, how?
Old lefty…
True villain like hitler? Or the night stalker? A baby killer? Che?
Or villain like someone that could/has committed crimes?
I would hope a person would put human decency before their political party.
Who said clinton was a villain ala hitler, etc.? Maybe a lying leftist politician, but that’s far from being a villain. If villain as in has/could break the law, well, in fact he did. He lied under oath.
Maybe something you are missing. The right isn’t saying obama is a villain or anything like that. They just don’t like his leftist policies. Compare that to the view of bush from the left, they insist he’s hitler and all the other true villains of history.
OK,instead of ‘villian’, make it someone who in your opinion would make the WORSE president, whether due to incompetence, inexperience OR nefarious motives.
Let’s not forget that they called Clinton a rapist, troopergate, killing Vince Foster.
They accuse Obama of being a secret Muslim, a racist, and a black militant.
Bush has been accused of starting a war that resulted in that the horrific deaths of thousands,for war profiteering AND because he wanted to be a war president.
My point is, if ‘THIS TIME’ (meaning anytime), your guy is guilty of any of the above, how do you assure youself that you would know?
And to have faith that those who make their living spinning for one particular party would suddenly put human decency OR the good of the country before their political party OR their ratings, isn’t good enough, since both sides even now, believe the other side won’t admit their side is wrong.
Hey LV– Obama was at least employed in the real world for awhile. McCain’s been nothing but a militarist and politician.
And if McCain did best (certainly an opinion. My Republican-leaning husband disagrees and thought Obama the better speaker), perhaps because it was because McCain’s motorcade, gee, got “stuck in traffic,” allowing him to forego the “cone of silence” that would have prevented him from hearing the questions Obama was answering beforehand.
Like McCain said at the “Tortoise Driven Life”’s church of cash: “Jesus was a POW and so was I. Let’s get those Arabs; they’re different.”
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/saddleback_bloopers.html
Did you know:
1… that thanks to a provision in tax law demanded by liberals in Congress-President Bush’s tax relief packages of 2001 and 2003 are set to expire, resulting in what the Wall Street Journal describes as “the biggest tax increase in our nations history”
2… that if Pres. Bush’s tax cuts expire, the American people will face an overall tax hike of almost $2.4 trillion.
3… that more than 8 million jobs were created after Pres. Bush signed into law the second round of historic tax cuts in 2003, and that almost 6 million additional jobs could be created over the next decade by making permanent the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003
4…that if the Liberals who now control Congress succeed in revoking President Bush’s tax cuts, 42 million American families with children will see an average tax hike of $2,084.
5…that Americans pay an estimated 35 to 40% of their earnings each year in federal taxes.
6…that if Pres. Bush’s tax cuts expire, 17 million American seniors will be hit with an average tax increase of $2,034
7…that if Pres. Bush’s 2001 tax cuts are not made permanent, 26 million small business owners will face an average tax increase of $3,637
8…that Nancy Pelosi and the libs who now control Congress want to reinstate the Death Tax-The Death Tax would increase taxes by $91 billion.
9…that Pres. Bush’s first tax releif package provided Americans with accros the board tax rate cuts that are set to expire. If these tax rate cuts are not made permanent, families will face a tax increase of as much as 100%
10…that by repealing the tax cuts or 2001 and 2003, liberals in Congress would reinstate the Marriage Penalty that forces married couples to pay higher taxes than single taxpayers.
Do you want more of your hard earned money in your pocket or someone else’s?????????
Be careful who you vote for in November…
It was so obvious watching that saddleback debacle. McCain was obviously in the know. I have lost all respect for JH and Pastor W Davis. Why did he arrive late, why did the questions start, even though McCain was not in the ‘cone of silence’ this is so suspect considering that JH has the oratory skills of a gerbal. On watching this and hearing JH continually use his time in the military as a shield and sword, dont you think its about time he releases his full military records. Let us/we the people decide whether he has the character and judgement to lead, this needs to be done asap as there’s so much stuff flying around about his bad military past.. heres a few facts the neocons opps i mean typically white fox viewers to chew on.
When Are We Going to See McCain’s Actual Military Record?
by Gregory Wonderwheel
Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 08:24:55 AM PDT
Subtitle: Where are real investigative reporters when we need them?
If you saw or heard headlines like MSNBC’s
Navy releases McCain’s military record
Unadorned paragraphs bestow some of nation’s top military honors
reporting the story by JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer, you might believe that the Navy has released McCain’s military records.
If you do, you would be wrong. The main stream media propaganda being what it is you would be understandably wrong but still wrong.
According to Kuhnhenn,
The Navy recently released McCain’s military record most of it citations for medals during his Navy career after a Freedom of Information Act request by The Associated Press.
If you look at the link to the records that were released you will see that Kuhnhenn was misrepresenting the facts by calling this small collection of only 19 pages McCain’s “military record”.
* Gregory Wonderwheel’s diary :: ::
*
This Associated Press headline “Navy Releases McCain’s Military Record” is all over the internet as it was picked up as a story in very many local media outlets both printed and television.
Apparently what the Navy released were the copies of citations, a couple of pages listing his eligibility for service citations, and a little over one page of a typed outline listing brief biographical data including dates of promotions and assignments on a plain page of paper without even a military letterhead.
Now, I never served in the military. My older brother was a Marine in Vietnam and based on his stories, on what I knew aboout the history of Vietnam from the information available at the time, and on my own developing beleifs in non-violence as a better way, when I was had to register for the draft in 1967 I registered as a conscientious objector. I just didn’t buy the story that the communists in Vietnam were planning to march down the streets of Los Angeles, as my draft board said they would, if I did’t join the military.
So there may be things in these documents that I don’t understand based on their military point of view. But I can see where dates don’t agree. And it doesn’t take a military mind to see that vast amounts of information on McCain’s military service are missing.
I’m writing this diary based on the story that these 19 pages are considered the release of McCain’s military records. If I am wrong and there are other more complete versions of McCain’s military records that have been released, then please, anyone, let me know and I will modify or delete this diary as appropriate.
But based on the reported story, my first question is, why did Kuhnhenn and the Associated Press report this paltry handful of 19 pages as the “release” of McCain’s “military record”?
Where are the rest of McCain’s military records?
Where are the reports on McCain’s Naval Academy grades?
Where are the reports on McCain’s transfers from one unit to another and why he was transferred?
Where are the reports on McCain’s assignment to pilot training in Florida and the references to his Naval Academy grades qualifying him for such an assignment? Where are the letters indicating who recommended him for that assignment? Where are the records of how his training went?
The slim list of his service assignments states that after Naval Air Basic Training, McCain had two short assignments with the third being to VA-65 from November 1960 to October 1963. Then in November 1963 McCain was reassigned back to Naval Air Basic Training? Why? What happend at VA-65? At Air Basic Training was he getting retraining for himself or was he assigned to train others?
Where are the reports on the five wrecked jet planes that McCain was involved in during his military career?
After McCain’s second stint at Air Basic Training he was assinged to the Training Squadron SEVEN ad Meridian Mississippi for a little over two years. Where are his military records from this assignment?
He then went to VA-44 at Cecil Field Florida for six months until April 1967.
In May 1967 McCain was transferred to VA-46 where the “record” says he served for only four months to September 1967 howerver this dae is sucpect as discussed below. Why was he transferred out of VA-46 after only four months? VA-46 was duty on the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal (CVA-59). Could it have anything to do with the fact that on July 29, 1967, about two months after McCain began his duty with VA-46 on its very first combat deployment that there was a terrible disaster on deck where a ZUNI missle was set off that created a chain reaction of explosions and fire that killed up to 134? Where are the military records of McCain’s involvement in the USS Forestal incident?
Note: I have seen three different dates on the internet references to the USS Forrestal incident written as the date of the fire, July 20, July 26 and July 29, of which the 29th is the official date.
Here’s a video of the incident which states “134 men were killed or missing.” This video is used now for training purposes to scare sailors into taking ship fires seriously and to get them to take their fire fighting instruction seriously.
Note that the video begins by saying “On deck somehow a ZUNI rocket has been triggered.” Where is the Navy’s investigation report on how the missle was set off and who was responsible? Could it be that the rumors that the Zuni missle was set off because of McCain’s negligence are true? One story has it that McCain was in his jet at the time and he was showing off and trying to scare the pilot behind him, so McCain made a big flash of explosion of jet fuel happen when he “wet started” his engine, and because the flash was too large it set off the Zuni missle on the plane behind him and the missle shot out under McCain’s plane and several others until it hit a nother plane down the row as shown in the video.
McCain’s campaign biography says he was on the USS Forrestal on July 29. Here’s McCain’s official description of the event.
On July 29 1967, John narrowly survived the first of many near-death experiences during his lifetime while preparing to take off on a bombing mission over North Vietnam from his ship, the USS Forrestal. A missile accidentally fired from a nearby plane struck the fuel tanks on John’s plane and created a deadly inferno aboard the ship. John barely escaped the fiery disaster that killed 134 men, injured hundreds more and destroyed 20 planes.
Again, the missle “accidentally” fired.
According to WAYNE MADSEN/WAYNE MADSEN REPORT
WMR has learned additional details regarding the deadly fire aboard the Navy aircraft carrier, the USS Forrestal, on July 19, 1967 in the Gulf of Tonkin. The additional details point to then-Lt. Commander John McCain playing more of a role in triggering the fire and explosions than previously reported.
On January 16, 2006, WMR reported that according to a US Navy sailor who was aboard the Forrestal on the fateful day of the fire, “McCain and the Forrestal’s skipper, Capt. John K. Beling, were warned about the danger of using M-65 1000-lb. bombs manufactured in 1935, which were deemed too dangerous to use during World War II and, later, on B-52 bombers. The fire from the Zuni missle misfire resulted in the heavy 1000 pound bombs being knocked loose from the pylons of McCain’s A-4 aircraft, which were only designed to hold 500-pound bombs.”
WMR further reported, “The unstable bombs had a 60-second cook-off threshold in a fire situation and this warning was known to both Beling and McCain prior to the disaster.” WMR also cited the potential that McCain’s Navy records were used against him by the neo-cons in control of the Pentagon, “The neo-cons, who have had five years to examine every file within the Department of Defense, have likely accessed documents that could prove embarrassing to McCain, who was on board the USS Forrestal on July 29, 1967, and whose A-4 Skyhawk was struck by an air-toground Zuni missile that had misfired from an F-4 Phantom
WMR has been informed that crewmen aboard the Forrestal have provided additional information about the Forrestal incident. It is believed by many crewmen and those who have investigated the case that McCain deliberately “wet-started” his A-4E to shake up the guy in the plane behind his A-4. “Wet-starts”, done either deliberately or accidentally, shoot a large flame from the tail of the aircraft.
In McCain’s case, the “wet-start” apparently “cooked off” and launched the Zuni rocket from the rear F-4 that touched off the explosions and massive fire. The F-4 pilot was reportedly killed in the conflagration. “Wet starting” was apparently a common practice among young “hot-dog” pilots.
McCain was quickly transferred to the USS Oriskany (the only Forrestal crewman to be immediately transferred). Three months later, McCain was shot down over North Vietnam on October 26, 1967.
The unofficial looking list of assignments in McCain’s released military record states that McCain was reassinged out of the VA-46 (thus off the USS Forrestal) in September 1967 and assigned to VA-163 in October 1967. But the official Air Medal citation “for meritorious service” in VA-163 on “the USS Oriskany (CVA-34)” states that his service there “during missions in support of combat operations” was “from 25 July to 21 October 1967.” So the citation says McCain was transferred to the VA-163 on the USS Oriskany not in September two months after the USS Forestal disaster but four days before the fire.
What is the cause of this discrepancy in the military records? What was the date that McCain was transferred from the USS Forrestal to the USS Oriskany?
Why does the plain sheet of paper in the military record say he was transferred off the USS Forrestal in Septemeber 1967 but the citation for service on the USS Oriskany says he began his service there on July 25, 1967, four days before the fire on the USS Forrestal?
Did McCain transfer off the USS Forrestal after the fire but have his records altered at the time to appear that he transferred off before the fire? Did he transfer in July or in September? Could it be that McCain’s quick transfer off the USS Forestal and out of VA-46 and the confusion of the dates were because he was found to be responsible for the fire? Could it be that he was transferred so quickly so the sailors wouldn’t frag him for having casued the death of their fellow sailors? Or could it be something innocent like there just weren’t enough planes to go around after the 20 to 21 planes were damaged? I don’t know, but perhaps the full military records would clear this up if we ever got to see them.
Knowing how many other pilots were transferred off the USS Forrestal after the fire and how quickly they were they transferred would also help explain if there was anything unsual about McCain’s transfer and why the records that were released have such a discrepancy. The USS Forrestal certainly wasn’t put out of commission by the incident and other planes could have been brought in, so were they? Was McCain the only pilot transferred off of the Forrestal so quickly?
Is the USS Forrestal incident McCain’s Chappaquiddick with the records being buried by the military? Release of the full and complete records would help clarify these points.
McCain’s official boigraphy next says,
Instead of taking the option to return home after the Forrestal disaster, Senator McCain volunteered for more combat duty – a fateful decision that stopped the clock on his life and separated him from his family, and country, for five and a half years.
Excuse me, why would he be given “the option to return home” after the Forrestal disaster? He was in the military so he couldn’t just “return home.” Combat pilots were needed so why would the Navy offer to let him “return home” if there was no responsibility for the disaster on his part? And since when do combat trained pilots get to volunteer for combat duty rather than be assigned to such duty? Perhaps the military records could clarify what “volunteer” for combat duty means in in a war time environment. Are there any military personnel out there who could help me understand this point?
So next after the USS Forrestal disaster, McCain was assigned to VA-163 on the USS Oriskany and was shot down either in the very same month or 3 months later depending on which of the two dates of the transfer is correct. The citations don’t make it clear what the difference is between “combat support missions” and actual combat missions. Acccording to the citations his combat support missions were between July 25 and October 21 and he engaged in combat missions worthy of citation on the 18th and 25th of October and on the 26th when he was shot down.
The citation for his Silver Star says that from October 27 to December 8 1967,
His captors, completely ignoring international agreements, subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes.
Wait a minute? What does it mean “attempted”? McCain has admitted that he was successfully broken down by his captors and that he did make and sign “false confessions.” So this citation is for his resistance before he broke down. None of the citations referring to his POW experience mention that he signed confessions. I’m not faulting him at all. I probably would have signed any false confession they put before me without any torture. The point is not that he didn’t demonstrate valorous resistance before he was broken down, but that these are not complete military records if they don’t include the references to the confessions that he did sign afterwards. These citations by their very purpose just cherry-pick the things the superiors could write down as deserving of citation and they ignor any other facts. That is understandable in a document whose sole purpose is to justify a citation, but it is not a military record of the whole incident itself.
After McCain was released from capture, where are the military reports on McCain’s debriefing after being a POW?
After McCain was relaeased from the hospital in July 1973 he was promoted to Commander and assigned to the National War College for 11 months. Then he was assigned to VA-174 where he served for three years until July 1977 without promotion though he received a citation for his safety record, personnel training, and promoting the “Human Resources Developmnet program”.
McCain was then transferred in July 1977 to the Office of Legislative Affairs in Washington DC where he served as “Director of the Senate Liason”. In other words McCain was serving as a lobbyist for the Navy. Two years later in August 1979 he was promoted to Captain and less than two years later in March 1981 he retired from the Navy to take up his political career.
At his retirement after serving as Director of the Senate Liason, McCain received the Legion of Merit award. The citation is pretty funny to read as it clearly describes his political savy as a Navy lobbyist at working the system for the benefit of the Navy. Here’s what the Navy’s praise of its lobbyists sounds like:
Captain McCain’s unique talents, exceptional knowledge of politico-military matters, and keen and unusally perceptive insights into the interests and relationships between key members of the Congress provided Navy leadership with sage advice and sound judgement for enacting critical legislation during a period of severe fiscal constraint. His performance in this sensitive and critical postition contributed directly and significantly to the success of navy programs before the Congress, ensuring both readiness and modernization of the fleet.
So McCain was promoted to Captian and awarded the Legion of Merit by the Navy for performing the duties of a good lobbyist.
The next year McCain the former Navy lobbyist was elected to Congress and another fox was let loose in the hen house.
Kuhnhenn reports that the AP received the records as a result of a Freedoom of Information Act request. But Kuhnhenn did not report why he only received 19 pages. He didn’t report what the nature of his request was or whether there was any response indicating why he didn’t receive a complete record. Why hasn’t McCain voluntarily waived confidentiality and released his full military records on his own?
So with all these unanswered questions about his military career, I can only ask where are John McCain’s real, actual, and complete military records and when will they be released?